so i came accross this blog of an Israeli - i am assuming it's a girl, i do not know why.
and read this post
www.israellycool.com/blog/ModerateArabsandMuslims
I have always been a firm believer that Israel is not an enemy, and that you cannot hate someone just coz they are israeli. I am all for peaceful relations, and active peace between Egypt and Israel.
But this blog let me see the other side, especially that sentence "it doesn't change my opinion that Egypt is no friend of ours"
I realized - well if most of the Egyptian population hated Israel so much, and would do horrific acts of brutality if they come across an Israeli, then this must be reciprocal.
Israeli's would feel pretty much the same towards us.
The idea that someone hates me so much - without even knowing me, sent a chill through my body!
It's scary
(I still stand behind my opinion, that Israel is no enemy of mine)
15 comments:
Just saw that you linked to my blog, and would like to respond to your comments.
1. I am a guy...I am guessing you missed the name "Dave" before each post!
2. Taking one of my posts out of context is not a good way to garner my real views. If truth be told, I certainly do NOT view all Egyptians as my enemy. I meant Egypt as a country - or more accurately the government - is no friend of ours. That is my opinion. I am glad we are not at war, and I hope it stays this way. I just don't think your government thinks much of Israel, and wouldn't mind it if we were vaporized. This is just my opinion.
So please do not judge ME by a few lines of one post. I am encouraged by the last line of your post, and feel the same about the average Egyptian.
Peace.
superlui,
Just think, for the past 30 years our newspapers did nothing but call jews and israelis every name in the book, and accuse them of being behind every problem we have. They don't hate us as much as they relaized we are not interested in ever being friendly towards them. And they are justified in thinking so, no?
Hey dave!
well i admit it's quite weird i didn't read your name in the blog - i guess my feminism took over
When i referred to your blog - i meant to say that reading it made me realize that if we are taught at a young age to hate Israeli's and are brainwashed into thinking thei are the "enemy" then it must happen in Israel too.
It was not to say that you are that type of person, i simply do not know you - and after all you said Egypt is "no friend" you didn't say enemy.
I was not judging you or anything - i found your blog quite interesting, and wanted to comment on it - it just lead me to that thinking.
Generally i think it is terribly wrong to Brainwash people into thinking someone is the enemy - you shouldn't judge people based on what passport they hold.
I do not think the government is against iseael, it is quite diplomatic when it comes to Israel. I really do not think the govenment is the problem or they even care about Israel, right now Palestine is causing us more pain and annoyance then anything else - but the people are the problem! All those ignorant people and Muslim Brotherhood who try and brainwash everyone - those are the problem.
Once people start getting an education and having a mind of their own i do not think there will be negative feelings between the two countries.
Sometimes history is just history.
And i believe that one day Arabs will be wise enough to start integrating Israel into the Middle East and Arab world and stop repeating those stupid slogans like "we'll wipe them off the map" coz you have a right to be in this land, just as much as pasestinians do. (not more, not less)
(ehm i realize all you egyptians will call me a traitor right now, but F*** off, i am right and you are wrong)
I really didn't mean to judge you - and i was not thinking about you in specific - i was just putting myself is someone elses shoes
Gannat - you ROCK girl!
I know dave means david - which is quite the stereotype of what an Israeli guy would be called - haha
Dave, Gannat is an true role model for people who can make this world a better place. Before she went on an internship with AIESEC (www.aiesec.org), she was one of those product of the egyptian way of thinking about Jews and Israeli's
She went to the US and her boss was Jewish, and though she may not agree with Israel's policies, and is not "for israel" as i would be -she has demonstrated great acceptance, not just tolerance, of other people's cultures and religious beliefs even when you are raised not to tolerate them.
That was a result for her experience in the US.
With more people like her, the world could stand a shot!
another good reason why AIESEC ROCKS too!!
Superluli,
Thank you for explaining your comment. I have to say that your comments and blog have really given me hope that the "cold" peace we currently have could develop into something warmer.
What % of Egyptians do you think hold your opinions? (and those of Egyptian Sandmonkey whom I emailed earlier this week, independent of this discussion).
As a starting point to encourage both people's to better understand each other, I am blogrolling you. It's a small step, but a small token for showing you that I appreciate your comments and willingness to understand Israel's point of view.
Peace.
P.S I am politically quite right-wing, but support true peace. So I guess I don't fit any stereotypes either.
well the rich updder class (in marketing we call them Class A) are 1% in addition to the 5% Class B makes a total of 6% of educated Egyptians with financial ability to be something in society.
of those 6% i would say 1% acctually have the desire to think and change things in this country.
And out of those 1% i think only 0.5% are not affected by the brainwashing they have - because like me or sandmonkey have learned to think for themselves either through a forgein education, foreign exposure, or great cultured parents, or they must be geniuses.
Quite a picture huh?!!
April 2009 - inshalaah i will be in Israel! (i change my passport in may 2009 haha)
Wow, what an encouraging string of comments to read. Just wanted to say thank you for having this conversation.
Hello All,
I'm sorry luli for ignoring your latest "no stress" entry, but coming across this one, I just couldn't ignore it.
Unfortunately, living in the UAE, the censorship on the internet prevents me from reading dave's blog, but where there's a will there's a way (haven't found it yet, but i will).
As for the comment string..here's my two cents...
- Israel is a country. It exists, it's on the globe (even if not in some maps), it has a population, a government, an economy, a recent geographical history but a rich and lengthy human history. DEAL WITH IT!
- Palestine is a country. It exists on the globe (even if not on some maps), it has a population, a government, an economy, an ancient geographical and human history. DEAL WITH IT!
The problem is both sides would like to see the other abolished (i'm talking about the governments here).
Now moving on, i know this is not really about the relationship between Israel and Palestine, but the one between Israel and Egypt, and about that I have this to say:
Israel is a country, inhabited by people. Those people, in general, the average Israeli person, has not done anything to harm others, harm me, or harm Egypt. Why should I hate them? Why should I consider that individual my enemy? Why should I refuse to work with or befriend them? I see no reason, yet people will argue the nonsensical arguement about history, greed, and untrustworthiness, and I will reply saying:
I trust people. I think people are good. If Marx said one thing right, it's that people are all good by nature. They are a result of circumstances, ubringing and situations. So until a person, Israeli, American, Indian, Persian, Arab, Libyan or whatever shows something that merits the lack of trust, I will trust them. I have no reason not to.
We are not to judge people by the actions of their governments. And that's good enough for now, but is it a beginning?
Like luli said, only a few people will share these views, and I doubt many of them would be able to share them openly or publicly (hense resorting to a blog).
Can this be made more vocal?
how do we make it vocal without going to jail?
and will it affect people?
i am pessimistic about what kind of change we could do here
Greetings all...
"The idea that someone hates me so much - without even knowing me, sent a chill through my body!"
2 months ago, I would've just shook my head at this (very open-minded) conversation here.
But - I happen to be from Denmark, so now I seem to have joined the club. For years to come I will be judged by a dozen cartoons.
God help us all
we seem to be talking to the educated elite. And nothing wrong with that.
But you admit you represent a very small part of the Egyptian people.
I as an American Jew have no desire or demand on Egypt.
I read Dave's blog and it is rather tame if you ask me. If I am not mistaken the islmaic brotherhood has idological if not direct contections to Hamas and they do advocate the destruction of Israel. The ave. Israeli would just like to be left alone if that is a cold peace so be it. It seems to me you have put the cart before the horse.
The Egyptian ruling mob is the only component in this country that is positively friendly towards Israel, but they are hypocrites as not to say it in public (yes we live where government works undercover).
Superluli: "Sometimes history is just history."
Exactly. And history says that peoples have always moved and pushed and replaced other nations on lands. It's natural. At the same time History has no end and a peoples [Palestinians] has the right to fight back for their land. It's happened; it must continue to happen. It's the Palestinians' obligation to fight Israel and claim their land, or be modern time Native Americans (with sincere respect to Native Americans). 50 years is just a glimpse in history.
It's not [shouldn't be] the issue of religious fanatism as it has come to be, but of simple right and just, as far as Palestinians are concerned, and a matter of national interest as far as Egypt is concerned. The existence of a racial, imposed, foreign entity at our border which competes with us on resources and interrupts our strategic space is simply not in our interest. No hard feelings, but Israel must vaporise.
Superluli: "you [Israelis] have a right to be in this land, just as much as Palestinians do."
Where did you get that from? The Toratic people of Israel have long dissolved. Any talk about racial purity and 'Semitism' is nothing but propaganda. Europeans have no right to claim the Land of Palestine theirs; as much as they don't have any relation to the Toratic 12 tribes. Arab Jews should live as an integral part of Arab society in secular countries.
And where did you get this class-based classification of Egyptians' views on Israel? That's totally made up and doesn't reflect anything. It's not that well-off, educated people think that Israel is our friend while the shabby, shanty-town dwellers are all against it!
my dear friend I agree on every word Alf said and just ask you if you remember that Isreal had 4 different wars with Egypt including a terrible war in 1967 , 300,000 Egyptian officers and soliders till now we don't what happened to them !! My dear the 99%or rather the 95% brain washed population that hates Isreal is not doing this for nothing , it is long past full of blood and as we say the blood can not be turned in to water
I am not from the people who call to kill isrealis and all this talk , I respect their rights as humans as long as they respect others' rights and unfortunately they don't do so
Alef,
great use of fancy big words!
Egypts strategic space and interests is being distracted by the palasenians and the arabs not by Israel! Remembe rEgypts stregnth came when we focused on the Medditranian and Africa and nt on the Arab world!
what did the Arabs bring Egypt except humulation, war and wahabi Islam!
Girl, i don't know who u r tryig to impress .. u r only 23 yrs old and u seem to have figured it all out! .. i know u belive in such words as i am accountable to what i belive and say .. and that i am a human being .. therefore, freedom of speech is one of my rights.. but then what do u say about the documentary released a week ago or so of the Israeli Soldiers killing more than 250 Egyptian Soldiers in Cold Blood in 1967? what do you say to women raped, children killed everyday by Israeli Soldiers? i am not against you or women in general .. i just think that u r either naive, misled, you don't understna history well ... or you are plain stupid .. and that is off course my humble opinion granted to me by the freedom of speech ...
hello there "man apart" i tried to find your blog to try and find out more about you but all i seem to find is some thing about you liking lots of women.
It doesn't leave a good impression of who you are, but i am not going to judge a book by it's cover.
While i agree with you that there are a lot of etrocities in the world, raping, killing and horrific things done to many people in the world - i still believe that war and hatred will only make matters worse. all these bad things you talk about happen because of hate, ignorance and lack of cultural understanding and a lot of political agendas and brain washing. So when i advocate love and acceptance, education and resisitng political agendas and brain washing i am called naive, missunderstood and stupid? well if that's the case i am fine with it. I completely understand that this is a lot easier said than done - but saying is the first step.
Again i would like to point out how sad i am that you are unable to participate in a civilized discussion - much like the a lot of the arab people - you attacked me personally calling me ignorant and stupid . why don't you challenge my ideas? tell me what you think about the matter? you believe in war? ok then i believe in peace and we can disagree and discuss the subject. But attacking the person and not the idea is a sign of weakness. I recommend you read the book "getting to yes" which is about principled negotiations - i was happy to see that persident sadaat was a common example in the book on how to conduct successful negotiations.
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