just an explanation!
Egyptians are NOT Arabs!
that is why i refer to Arabs as "they"
I believe Egyptians have their own unique name, which is Egyptian.
A mixture of Ancient Egyptians, Turks, Eastern Europeans(places that used to be with the ottoman empire) , a little bit Italian, Greek and Arab Peoples.
Our loyalty is to Egypt, then to the entire World!
maybe i am wrong, but i just don't think we are Arabs!
maybe it's just coz i don't like people from the Arab Peninsula and i do not want to be associated with them?
do you think so?
comment and let me know!
23 comments:
I've had this conversation with so many Egyptians I've lost count.
If Egyptians aren't Arabs than neither are Lebanese nor Syrians.
Here here, I agree completely. Nisrin, I think that the truth is, the idea of an "Arab world" is really a myth, a byproduct of both colonialism and pan-Arab nationalism.
Although I don't believe there is really an "Arab" ethnicity that spreads outside of the Gulf states, I do think there is in some way an "Arab" culture - food, music, religion, social values - but even that is tenuous at best.
Even the Arab language is a sham. Egyptian and Moroccan are about as similar as Czech and Polish (and for similar reasons). If eveyone didnt know how to mimic the Egyptian dialect (from watching all the movies and TV) then the "Arab world" could hardly communicate with each other.
I posted a response on my blog. I didn't want to take up too much space, but i think i have anyways.
I'm starting to think the word Arab has become one of those words that people throw around like the words impact and leadership.
I don't think the "Arab World" is a byproduct of colonialism and pan-Arab nationalism. I believe Arab culture is a byproduct of the spread of Islam.
I think Arab culture is split into the following 3 subcultures: The Levant (Israel/Palestine, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon), the Gulf States/Arabian Peninsula, and North Africa.
I would place Egyptians in the same culture category as the Levant because i think their culture is more similar to each other than Egypt is to North Africa. But then again I've never been to North Africa.
Tom, I've gotta disagree with you on the whole Egyptian movie thing. I can understand an Emirati better than I could ever understand an Egyptian. Everyone could communicate with each other (well maybe except for the tunisians and moroccans) without ever having to watch Egyptian movies.
Egyptians just like to change a few letters. For some weird reason they like ga instead of ja. And to all the Egyptians out there its not Nancy Agram. It's Nancy Ajram.
Nisrin, i agree with you arguments. But still Egyptians are not Arabs! I believe one of the worst things the Egyptian govenment has done since Sadat is align itself with the Arab World instead of Africa or the Midetranian region. But thats for geopolitics and economical reasons not cultural.
On the other hand Tom, the arab world is not a myth! Its a group of countries, connected and share similair values language and culture. It should be easier to have a Arab World than an EU! But its like high school drama in the "Arab World"!
Tom it exists and i dont want to be part of it! Not cuz "Arabs" are bad, no, cuz its just not in the best interest of my country!
have a great WE!
Assem
Nisrin I think we are 99% agreeing here. There is a lot of common culture across the Levant and North Africa, and it is undoubtably influenced by the spread of Islam. But everyone who lives in countries with such culture are NOT Arabs.
Israelis eat Shawerma, Felafel and Shakshouka. And they call it by that name as well. Persians and Turks share much "Arab" culture, but you wouldn't want to call an Iranian an Arab unless a punch in the face is your idea of a good time.
Britain, Australia, Ireland and New Zealand have some very, very similar cultural links. Baked beans on toast for breakfast. BBC television. Westminster style political systems (although Ireland has a president). This doesnt mean we are all British - although all these countries inherited culture from the British empire.
Arabs are a specific ethnic grouping of people, and through our choice or words, we describe Arab influenced Levantine/North African culture as Arab culture. But people living in these cultures are not Arabs.
I'll concede that I'm probably wrong on the language. But for sure, no-one else in the Arabic speaking world understands Moroccans, Libyans and Tunisians and Algerians.
glad to see i have come up with a discussion here.
Nisrin, i totally agree with you in a lot of things. i do not think lebanese syrians and palestinains are arabs either.
I totally disagree with the fact that you can unite people based on language and Religion. why should religion unite people?
if we agree to that then we agree that religion could separate people.
and that is the wrong ideology.
As for language, as tom said so many countries speak English, also some speak french - that in itsself does not create a link whatsoever!
and Nisrin, Nancy AJram ROCKS!!
"why should religion unite people? if we agree to that then we agree that religion could separate people. and that is the wrong ideology."
Oh man, Luly just schooled us. We have to shut up now.
Well if we want ot define the arab world we should take a look at the history, the arab tribes lived in the Gulf area only (Saudi, Jordan, Kuwait, Plaestien, Isarael Oman....etc..)
excluding Syria, lebanon, Iraq and the rest of north africa)
due to the "fotou7at el Islameya" (ie conquests done by the Arabs during and after the apperance of Islam as a religion) in a couple of hundred years the Islamic nation started from Spain till Iran.
Due to the unification of religion and language a lot got mixed and made what is known today as the Arab culture.
Denfinitly Egypt is an Arab country, politically, geographically(not sure of the spelling :D) and Religion wise as this area became the center of the Islamic religion, and ppl started to link Arabs to Islam including Arabs.
That implies on all the Islamic coutries in the mid east area.
Soad, there are more muslims than christians in Lebanon. 10 years ago it was 50/50, but now its about 70% muslim and 30% christian. Many christians left Lebanon during the civil war and post civil war.
Egypt is in AFRICA!!!!!!!! I'ts ancient history is BLACK, Negorid, Hamitic, Kametic, whatever names you wish to use (racist or non-racist). Get this:THE "ARABS" INVADED EGYPT IN APPROXIMATELY 650 AD. This fact explains so much of why the present day arabisation of the african continent is resulting in the attempted genocide of the black indigenous people (Sudanese)in the south of Egypt. But it won't suceed. The Africans are waking up. And most importantly they are waking to the ancient spiritual teachings of their ancestors who existed not only in Kemet (Egypt), but in the entire continent long before any people called british, persians, greeks, arabs ect.,invaded this culture. The religions of Islam, Christianity, Judaism are ALL derive from the african nile valley civilizations.
Keep this discussion going. Remember: TRUTH LIKE THE PHOENIX PRESSED TO THE EARTH SHALL RISE AGAIN.
A decendent of the ANCIENT Egyptians.
Reading your blog in retrospect. Tell me if you find my comment intrusive. I will just stop.
I just returned from Qatar, and to tell you the turth, I did not like most of what I have seen: so quickly modernised and losing identity. However, this is where I stop agreeing with you. Our definitions of what's Arab and what's Egyptian I find stereotypical, and could use some review (All the links are to my posts in Arabic. I will try to summarise):
* "Race" is a concept that goes back to 19th century science, and is not valid anymore. It is basically what produced most of the genocides we have seen in the last century. If there is to be an explanation to what's Arab and what's Egyptian, it needs to be cultural and anthropological.
* The historical representation of what's Arab I find not in Dubai or Jedda, but rather in the friendly bediouns one meets say when one decides that Sinai means more than the beach.
* Also what's Egyptian is somehow confused. The way I see it, most of the people who live in the Arab World (not an imaginary thing if you decide to see it so) have roots in the region that go so deep and broad to an Afro-asiatic culture and language. There are real similarities between Arabic and Ancient Egyptian, in grammar structue, in having the sound T ending most femenin nouns, in having singular and plural cases, but also the dual. You could concentrate a little and undersand half of the Aramiac Jesus spoke in the Compassion of the Christ, and it sounds just like any Palestinian today. The Common roots between Arabs (narrow meaning), Syrians, Egyptians, and Berber (North Africa) are much more than what we usually think.
* The Arab World is not a colonial by-product. Contrary, it is a choice Arabs (wide meaning) have to belong to if they want. It has historical origins, but it is a revivalist movement. In all cases, it will not be as solid as the German Volk, simply because hard-lined nationalism is an outdated European invention, and is not a universal thing. Things can be more relaxed and fluid in other places of the world.
* Arabic is a language, Tom, and is more consistent than other more popular languages, really. Let me help Nisrin by explaining that the Egyptian "G" sound how the tribe that arrived into Egypt from Nagd Arabia used to pronounce the letter.
* It is not fair to compare New Zeland and Australia to Egypt. In the case of Egypt, there is no such relocation of people, and the differences are not match to those between the English and Mauri. Where do you think Ancient Egyptians came from? In my travellings in Egyptian deserts, I could see there is a time when Egyptians lived a bedouin life, and they came down from the hills to the Nile Valley when the climate changed. This movement from the deserts to the valley has kept on going throughout the millenia, and you can still see it until today in the settlements around the Delta. Think of Egyptians not as a "thing", as a "process" of urbanism.
Egyptian and Arab is not an either/or situation.
Long?
You cannot see my nickname because this blog supports only Roman script. Use Unicode!
you are the most ignorant people and uneducated people in this world. 1st egyot is in Africa giving it a African origin. Secondly you are right about Ancient egyptians are not arabs. They invanded Egypt which is the name givin by the greeks the original name of egypt is Kemet which means (Black) Land of the Black. There were white egyptians but that is after the majoir invasions and conquerings of egypt by neighboring countries.There eas even persians and all the ones you misguide people listed. Egyptians were black, there of African lineage,and origin. If you want to see an egyptian got to nubia(modern day sudan) or good to the so called ghettos in America. White scholars even historians who recorded there visits to egypt such as Gaston Maspero,Herodus, t hey have conquered that egyptians were a black race of thick nose thick lip people.( remember I am talking about Ancient Egyptians Modern day egyptians whot take claim to that history iam directing this to.
The Egyptians are more advanced than all the other races in the world arabs
have never invented anything in thier lives. The egyptians are one race and we must preserve our blood purity.
ta seti and bedouins are all foriegners
Jamaal Anu Amentep
I also no that black saharans (khemet) were only slaves but my blood is racially pure. by the black terrorists in sudan are actually less human than arabs, and they should leave sudan!
Jamaal Anu Amentep
salam aleykoum
Bla bla bla.....
I hope however all of you are fine. In fact i can't get fully the real utility of this debate. Perhaps because , i have the advantage to have come late i, the discussion and thus ti have an global view of it. But there is no doubt that i feel that even if there is no true arab except in gulf states, there is a common culture and religion. Those who want to differenciate themselves from arab world they do it because of their proper occidentalization and maybe because they are ashamed of their identity. Actually in the earth we can see everywhere that the country are trying to forgot their differences and to gather in regional and economical associations. So the time is for the union for the division. The time is for looking for our resemblances not ,for our differences. Please try to stop this unuseless debate. freedom of thinking, doesn't mean the reign of unuseless
You are now using Unicode, Luli: The Arabic is showing.
All those who put Egyptian vs. Arab, in what I see as an overly-simplistic view, may want to join forces with an ongoing discussion at a blog dedicated for the issue.
My only request is to look a little deeply. Please do not use the word race, because that would make you, simply, racists. This is very negatively-looked-upon 18th century science, and can bring you a lot of flame.
Take it easy.
Egyptians are descended mostly from the ancient people of Egypt although there are some people who have Arab ancestry. The same goes with the people in Syria and "Lebanon" (which used to be Syria), Iraq and Palestine. The Syrians, Lebanese and Palestinians mainly descend from Phoenicians (Caananites), the Iraqi's descend from Babylonians Sumerians and Assyrians, the Jordanians from Nabateans and Arab tribes, and the Saudi's, Yemini's and the rest of the Gulf are mainly Arab tribes. Many North Africans are descended from Phoenicians and Arabs and most have some mixture of Berber in them. To make a long story short, what these people have in common is language (although it does differ they all have a Semitic root or influence), culture and tradition. Arab is a broad term and is used to describe many people. My ancestry is from Syria and my guess is that 30-40% of my ancestors spoke Arabic and 60-70% were Phoenician/Aramaen/Assyrian. Before the Islamic invasion of Syria, only a handful of tribal people from the Arabian Peninsula spoke Arabic there. "Arab" is used to describe all Middle Easterners and North Africans for political reasons, yet there are also many historical factors that come into play too. Is an Egyptian an Arab? Well, racially most aren't but because culture tradition, and history they are definitely part of the Arab World. I think that "Arab-Speaking Peoples" is a more accurate term to use for most of us who are called Arabs. Despite the lingustic differences most (not all) of these people can communicate with one another in what we now call Arabic.
Egyptians are descended mostly from the ancient people of Egypt although there are some people who have Arab ancestry. The same goes with the people in Syria and "Lebanon" (which used to be Syria), Iraq and Palestine. The Syrians, Lebanese and Palestinians mainly descend from Phoenicians (Caananites), the Iraqi's descend from Babylonians Sumerians and Assyrians, the Jordanians from Nabateans and Arab tribes, and the Saudi's, Yemini's and the rest of the Gulf are mainly Arab tribes. Many North Africans are descended from Phoenicians and Arabs and most have some mixture of Berber in them. To make a long story short, what these people have in common is language (although it does differ they all have a Semitic root or influence), culture and tradition. Arab is a broad term and is used to describe many people. My ancestry is from Syria and my guess is that 30-40% of my ancestors spoke Arabic and 60-70% were Phoenician/Aramaen/Assyrian. Before the Islamic invasion of Syria, only a handful of tribal people from the Arabian Peninsula spoke Arabic there. "Arab" is used to describe all Middle Easterners and North Africans for political reasons, yet there are also many historical factors that come into play too. Is an Egyptian an Arab? Well, racially most aren't but because culture tradition, and history they are definitely part of the Arab World. I think that "Arab-Speaking Peoples" is a more accurate term to use for most of us who are called Arabs. Despite the lingustic differences most (not all) of these people can communicate with one another in what we now call Arabic.
oh my god!how stupid can a human be!i.m egyptian and sure i am an arab!!!!we are all arabs and should be proud!but i c that there are still ppl with no brain who think it.s good that we split,instead looking for thge other problems we have in our countries!...the ARAB countries.....so anyone silly...GOSH! if you think we are not arabs and go jump into a lake or jump from a house........love ya all ARABS(egyptians,lebanese,tunesian,......)xXxmwaahxXx iman
to the sweety who said,that there are more christian ppl in lebanon than moslems!what are ya doing all thge day???sleeping???i guess ya do everything eccept using your little brain!!!when the islamic organisation oh 7esballah wanted to have a place in the government more than 10thousand lebanese ppl went out on the streets to protest against ppl who dont want to have them in the government!.......and there were less than 2000ppl protesting against 7esballah coming into the government!so,...think about it sweetheart....and go on sleeping or doing anything else if you cant use your brain................................
Amazing, that so many people here are viewing the Black (Ta-Seti/Saeedi) as not really Egyptian. Everywhere you go, everyone wants to be more white, and the first thing people say to feel important is to call the blacks "outsiders". You are all fake to me, and not worthy of being Egyptian. Be arab, and run to them. The "arab" mind is no different than the "european" or the "american". All colonizers.
We all know that the Egyptians are partly Black. We all know that the Egyptians have Black and African nuances and traits that are not found in the Arabs. But you will hide them, to appear more Arab. Or maybe you will simply try to call yourselves Arab and forget about your African heritage. To the fool who calls the blacks "terrorists". Remember that there is no doubt that the Blacks in Sudan were first. Remember also that the Arabs who steal their land are like the Israeli. It is hypocritical to steal black land from the blacks then come and cry out against Israel stealing arab land. I've never seen Israeli do as much destruction in the Middle East as the Sudanese has done against the Blacks. Hypocrites!
Oh and by the way, this is not a comment against all arabs. I am sure that arabs are normal people. but I see Egyptians, and I see them as black. Most of them look like they have a black mother or black father. But I know it's more complicated than that. What I do not like is that Egyptians pretend that there is no Black in Egypt. They pretend that the Nubians are foreigners, or that the Saeedi only have a tan. Black is nothing to be ashamed of or to look down upon. the Egyptians need to get off the "anti-black" bandwagon.
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